Nan introduces Pompeo’s State dept. document declaring that China has been conducting a genocide against Uyghurs in Xinjiang.

China issues sanction on 28 Trump administration officials.

Amy begins by talking about authority and freedom of religion. He best friend in elementary school, when they were in elementary school, when they joined the Red Scarf did not solute the flag.  Amy was very concerned for her friend.  Her friend was a very honest person. She said the salute was unchristian, because god was the only one you should solute. After a few days, she was in big trouble.  She still refused to solute.  Amy found out later, her friends father was in jail for being an anti-revolutionary, because he owned a chemical factory.  They were a very religious family. 

Amy recalls a very famous bishop in 1950. At the time the CCP was just starting to take away things like religion.  In Shanghai, many countries had their own sections following the opium wars.  Amy explains that her father was adopted by a Moslem family, though her father never practiced.  Her mothers side was Christian.  Since her grandmother died, the priest would regularly come to prey for the family.  She recalls enjoying the singing and welcoming environment at her mothers church.  Then the CCP sent undercover party members to dismantle the church from within. Many church leaders were arrested or executed for failing to compromise their beliefs.

Amy’s friends father was arrested and eventually executed for holding true to his Christian beliefs.  Eventually the church was infiltrated and controlled by the CCP. 

Amy searched for her friend before she was shipped off to the labor camp. Finally she found her village and discovered that she had committed suicide. The Red Guard had beaten her mother to death. Amy’s friend had to transport her mothers remains to be cremated. No burial was allowed. When she returned, she hung herself.

Nan says that, unfortunately these kinds of stories still happen every day to the Uyghurs in Xinjiang province.  Nan introduces Caylan Ford, former foreign policy advisor at Canadian Foreign Ministry.  Nan asks Caylan to help explain the term genocide.  Caylan describes how the term came originally from the Holocaust in the 2nd World War and eventually came to mean physical or biological acts aimed at the destruction of a specific group.

Nan asks if the US State Dept. “made the right call” indicating that a Genocide is occurring in Xinjiang.  Caylan suggests that there has been a “Cultural Genocide” for some time, which has a slightly different definition. However, more recently more evidence has come to light, particularly attempts to suppress births, indicating that what is occurring is a true Genocide. Caylan Ford suggests that Tibetans and Falun Gong have suffered similar fates.

Billy asks what sort of international pressure there is to stop the genocide. Caylan explains that, since China is a member of the UN Security Council, it is more difficult to apply international pressure. She describes political concerns preventing various actions being taken. Caylan points out that a number of human rights groups have spoken out, but they don’t have much traction.  Caylan mentions sanctions against individuals involved in Genocide. She also explains that many major US companies are sourcing products from forced labor and hopes that those companies can be pressured to relocate.  Caylan explains that it is very difficult to get information out of Xinjiang.  She mentions that the main vector of Genocide is serialization of as much as 30% of females Xinjiang.

Billy asks how Caylan began to study this subject. She explains how she began meeting people fleeing religious persecution in her teens. She laments that there is a lot of push back from people with business interests in China, suggesting that the human rights abuses are bad for business.  Caylan explains that China can not be easily held accountable. There are some ways, but it would require political will that does not currently exist.  Caylan suggests that state sanctions on individuals and cracking down on international businesses that are complicit are the most “practical deterrents”.

Billy asks if first hand testimony would help. Caylan says that “it is absolutely vital.”  She suggests it is a really important part of galvanizing public opinion.  Amy explains that she knows someone who returned to visit Xinjiang, was arrested and eventually escaped.

Caylan mentions CISCO Systems having been a major force behind helping China repress Falun Gong practitioners.  Other Silicon Valley companies have been involved in providing the CCP facial recognition and AI technology to China.  Billy is dumbfounded that an American company would aid this kind of behavior.

Nan asks if any organization or country could raise awareness within the US. Gaylen Ford suggests that the CCP has done a very good job of suppressing this sort of discussion. China currently chairs the UN Human Rights Commission. 

Amy mentions the use of propaganda to frame the Uyghurs as separatists. Caylan says the War On Terror was uses as an excuse to increase the abuses of the Uyghurs.  “For a time a lot of international organizations kind of played along with this.”

Amy mentions that in the 1970’s, there were a lot of Moslem’s in forced labor camps. Since the Moslem’s did not eat pork, they would be forced to work on pig farms. Amy says that everyone in the village was eventually killed.

Caylan says she is familiar with a member of the Chinese military who confessed that he became disillusioned after he was ordered to destroy a Muslim village.


Billy is horrified that Genocide is still happening today.  Nan recalls a book written by a Catholic who fled China called, “The Color Of God Is Red”.  He mentions that the Bishops and Priests in China are appointed by the CCP.  Nan tells the story of a priest who kidnapped a priest during the Cultural Revolution to beat and torture him. At some point the priest tells them to stop beating him, because he is a CCP member and he was working undercover.

Downtown Al asks if Nan and Amy could go back to China or would they be imprisoned. Nan explains that he was kicked out after being arrested for a day in 2000. His visa was canceled and he has not been able to go back. Nan was not able to attend his fathers funeral in 2006. Ever since, Nan has been working non-stop to raise awareness of human rights abuses in China.  Al asks what the effects are of the business interests on our relationship with Communist China.  Al thinks Amy’s stories would be great as a graphic novel to appeal to the youth.  Al mentions the graphic novel series Maus.  Al wants to know about any protests planned in the Bay Area, particularity against businesses who support the CCP.

Billy is shocked that there are US companies making a profit helping the CCP persecute people.  Nan recalls the use of the War on Terror narrative to provide cover for the persecution of the Uyghurs. 

Rory suggests that the lockdowns are causing people to not be allowed to attend church services.  Amy mentions a SF church that was fined for hosting a wedding.  Rory asks about the “notorious suicide nets” at some companies.  Nan explains that the company is called FoxComm, owned by a Taiwanese man, who has since moved some production to the US.  Nan describes how workers rights were intentionally ignored in China, until the suicide nets became infamous enough to effect foreign investment.  The CCP responded by creating labor unions, however those unions are all controlled by the CCP.

Homeless Jo asks “how do we know this is not propaganda to drive a wedge between our two countries?”  Billy mentions that there are thousands of witnesses to the human rights abuses, including Nan and Amy.  Nan describes two friends who died in the persecution of Falun Gong practitioners. He describes one of their sisters, who was imprisoned for 4 years. She hadn’t seen her son that whole time. 

Amy mentions that it is very hard to know what is true anymore.  Nan says, “think about history”. The CCP labels the Dali Lama a separatist. Though he is the 14th Dali Lama, because he fled religious persecution, he is a separatist. 

Wane went to China in 87 with a Catholic group. They were told religious liberty had returned in China.  He describes how they were watched. The priest was scared to do mass. Wane gave a lady a rosary in a church.

Amy talks about the difference between taking away something tangible and taking away the religion that is in your mind. She mentions how the thing she hates the most about the CCP is their ability to force people to betray each other.

Bill recommends a documentary called Death By China, made by Peter Navarro in 2012.  He suggests it condemns both Democrats and Republicans equally, because they are all bought and paid for by China. 

Alex read a book about the Dali Lama. From his understanding, the next Dali Lama will be picked by the Chinese government. Nan explains details about how the next Dali Lama will be found. Nan says there was a law passed by the CCP saying the next Dali Lama had to be picked inside China. The 14th Dali Lama then said there will be no next Dali Lama.

Ron brings up an interview about 83 global brands tied to forced labor in China. He describes workers who have been committing or attempting suicide. Nan says that it is because we do not fight for labor rights in China that the US loses so many of our jobs.

Sean in Australia reminds everyone that China was fighting with the Australians against the Japanese, then fighting against each other in Korea only a few years later.  He describes how much resources including coal and gas is now being shipped to China. While China has gotten rich, Australia has gone into debt. Sean suggests that our warlike nature is shockingly immature.

Dick asks why China is so afraid of Tibet? He talks about the “body of light” in the Buddhist tradition.  Nan and Amy explain that Tibet was occupied by the CCP in 1949. 

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